Talk:Prek Cali

Primary objective for article at this stage

Apologies for having littered the page with 'translation needed' tags. Unfortunately, many of us have been asking for a single instance article tag box for this specific use for years, but no administrators or technical staff have done anything about it... therefore, we're left to make messes of articles.

There is only one instance of an English language source being used. If nothing is available, you must translate at least the title and the gist of the section.

After that, it will be necessary to establish whether the resources being used are reliable and whether the article, in and of itself, is highly POV. Please remember that WP:NPOV is a policy, not just a guideline. At the moment, the article is reading as nationalist propaganda and needs to be toned down.

Thank you for your understanding. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 04:41, 23 January 2014 (UTC)

There are many notable people and events that did not receive significant attention of English language sources. Although English sources are preferred, in such cases it is completely allowed to use non-English sources. Per WP:NONENG it is necessary to provide translation only when quoting a non-English source. No policy requires translation of title and the gist of the section just because non-English source is used. "As with sources in English, if a dispute arises involving a citation to a non-English source, editors may request that a quotation of relevant portions of the original source be provided, either in text, in a footnote, or on the article talk page." If you are concerned about particular source you are free to request translation. Tag bombing every non-English citation is wrong.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 07:36, 23 January 2014 (UTC)

It's in desperate need of copy editing. I could try to copyedit without being able to consult the sources, but would need to consult with you (or another Albanian speaker) regarding instances where I can't fathom what the gist is. The German sources aren't a problem for me. If you're willing to work in collaboration with me, I'm happy to remove the tags. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 03:03, 24 January 2014 (UTC)

Of course. Thanks for your kind offer to copyedit the article.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 07:25, 24 January 2014 (UTC)

I've removed the tags and will make a start on copyediting in the next couple of days. Cheers! --Iryna Harpy (talk) 23:27, 27 January 2014 (UTC)

Addition of incorrect and polemics text

User:AlbertBikaj insist on addition diff numerous assertions based on flickr Dr. Luigj Martini : "Prek Cali,Kelmendi dhe Kelmendasit" and to remove other sources because they are allegedly written by communist,and great anti-chetnik and anti-albanian authors.

As illustration of scholarly quality of flickr Dr. Luigj Martini work can serve this assertion: "In 1913 Knjaz Nikola offered to Cali gold to let Montenegro to get Plava and Gucia and Vermosh,but Prek Cali refused" Plav and Gusinje were captured by Montenegrins in 1912 and held by them during whole 1913 and 1914. In case some of "communist,and great anti-chetnik and anti-albanian authors" are still alive so it would be good to take care about BLP policy. Cooperation between Cali and Chetniks is not supported only by Albanian and Yugoslav communist era historiography. There are tons of works written by Chetnik emigration that emphasize their cooperation with Cali. It is wrong to remove informations about this cooperation just because some Albanian authors denied it. Both positions should be presented. Thank you.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 09:08, 16 February 2014 (UTC)

Yes, I think AlbertBikaj has overstepped the line on neutrality several times on other articles. I have problems communicating with him as his English is extremely weak.

As we know, Wikipedia encourages as many sources as possible for articles in order to maintain a neutral balance. Dismissing several sources in favour of one is WP:POV. I would suggest that Albert find some serious verifiable and reliable sources to back up his claim that the authors cited in this article are not reliable!

P.S. Apologies in the delay in copyediting. I have a huge backlog, but this article is there and will be attended to. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 09:36, 16 February 2014 (UTC)

Antidiskriminator, thats story about borders! Knjaz Nikola wanted to pay Cali,to let him to move the border when he wanted,anyway Prek Cali refused.Prek Cali protected borders and refused to take gold from Knjaz Nikola. Also in official Albanian history cooperation with chetniks is absolutely untrue! You are refering to serbian communist literature,which oppose personality of Prek Cali. Also the new documentary denies all these serbian communist theory's! Also he was not against muslim Albanians! These books which claim that Cali was cooperator with chetniks are based on Albanian communist's litterature. After communist fall,these story's were denied,because Cali was not a traitor,but a hero. I apologies for my bad English.AlbertBikaj (talk) 13:26, 16 February 2014 (UTC)

If it was for Prek Cali, the Montenegrin border would be in Durres. Mondiad (talk) 17:37, 16 February 2014 (UTC)

Mondiad please read official history not communist propaganda. Knjaz Nikola wanted to give him a lot of gold,just to let him to move the border,but he refused! he is officially recognized as Albanian hero. AlbertBikaj (talk) 12:20, 17 February 2014 (UTC)

Read this Mondiad, the protection of Albanian border during 1913-1926.AlbertBikaj (talk) 13:58, 17 February 2014 (UTC)

Antidiskriminator I referred to Documentary about Prek Cali bipgraphy made by Digitalb. Im neutral,but you are describing an Albanian hero as a traitor. He is officially recognised as a Patriot and honor of nation in 2010 by President Bujar Nishani. Please stop dis-informing wikipedia readers,i have read Dr.Luigj Martini book,and i have met witness who knew Prek Cali. I know that Prek Cali was enemy of Montenegro,because he didnt let Montenegrin delegate to take "Bjeshket e Kuqe" (in North Albania) during 1920-26 Cali protected Albanian border from Montenegrins. Thanks — Preceding unsigned comment added by AlbertBikaj (talk • contribs) 14:08, 17 February 2014 (UTC)

Iryna Harpy i would suggest to move information's from Serbian literature to " Aftermath debate" because if we referrer to these information's we are not netural,there are just theory's which are not accepted by Albanian institute of History because Prek Cali didnt support chetnicks and he wasnt against muslims ,which Serbian authors say. Prek Cali is awarded in 1993 as Martyr of Democracy,in 2010 is awarded as "Honor of Nation" and "Hero of Albania". Serbian theory was accepted only during communism,also i must say that there are also pro-communist Albanians which are against Prek Cali and other Martyr's of Democracy,i protested a lot of times deleting false arguments,because he wasn't a chetnick supporter or against muslims,my grandfather fought along his side,and he is still alive,i asked him about these story's and he denied,also i read books about him. (Ps. My grandfather is awarded in 2003 as "Honored citizen of Kelmendi" by Jozefina Topalli. Also font forget that second Serbian literature UÇK,Adem Jashari were terrorists,and Albanians are not Europeans,second them Kosovo is Serbia,Skanderbeg was Serb according them etc.. so its not worthy to use Serbian literature for Albanian Heros. I apologize for my English,sincerely Albert.AlbertBikaj (talk) 16:42, 18 February 2014 (UTC)

Part of Albanian historiography denies Cali's connection with Chetniks. This view is already given undue weight in this article. Your intention to remove all other views and to present only this view would seriously violate WP:NPOV policy.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 17:10, 18 February 2014 (UTC)

Antidiskriminator "Part of Albanian History" is the Official history of Albania,the rest is just part of Hoxha's supporters. Please move "facts" acording to Serbian literature to "Aftermath debate" ,because he is OFFICIALLY RECOGNIZED HERO! AlbertBikaj (talk) 17:34, 18 February 2014 (UTC)

I agree he was a hero. Like Mondiad said, if it was up to Cali, there would be no border between Christians in Albania and neighboring regions. He bravely fought against communist together with Chetniks who supported him with money and arms. No surprise he is officially recognized as a hero. I don't understand your position here. Anyway, I explained my position and I don't have anything to add to it now. Other editors also do not share your position. I respect that your opinion is different, but you can not expect everybody to be somehow obliged to keep discussion this with you as long as you are unsatisfied with opinion of other editors. --Antidiskriminator (talk) 17:47, 18 February 2014 (UTC)

Its not like Mondiad said! Cali defended border of Albania from Montenegro in 1920-1926, he refused gold from King Nikola of Montenegro! He wanted an Ethnic Albania. He fought against Ottoman Empire,against Serbian Kingdom and against Communists. If it wasnt for Cali ,Kelmendi and Malsia e Madhe would be now under Montenegro! He wasnt against muslims,because he had good friendship with Bajram Curri and his last name is muslim too,he fought along side with muslim Albanians in battle of Kopliku in 1920. My grandfather knew him personally,he didnt hate muslim Albanians!!! In 2000 Albanians built the bust of Cali in Shkodra,and Prek Cali's figure is respected by majority of Albanians,(muslims and christians),and mostly he is respected in Kosovo! Communists destroyed his grave,and made up a lot of storys about him,which were supported by seriban communists. So please move Communists theory in "Aftermath debate" AlbertBikaj (talk) 18:11, 18 February 2014 (UTC)

• Please don't violate WP:NPA. Comment on content, not on contributor.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 18:45, 18 February 2014 (UTC)

I didnt offend no one,and please read about Protection of Border by Cali! Not fairy tales of communists,or watch the documentary. And please read what i wrote. AlbertBikaj (talk) 19:00, 18 February 2014 (UTC)

• With this edit (diff) you wrote "Mondiad is pro Communists"
• With this edit (diff) you claimed "I didnt offend no one"
• With this edit (diff) you tried to hide evidence about what you wrote. --Antidiskriminator (talk) 19:40, 18 February 2014 (UTC)

Nope i didnt,i deleted it,but it can be seen in "history",i dont mind it. AlbertBikaj (talk) 20:13, 18 February 2014 (UTC)

Anyway dont change subject,read what i said! Read about Albanian Border 1913-1926 (official History). Read my reply which i wrote! — Preceding unsigned comment added by AlbertBikaj (talk • contribs) 20:19, 18 February 2014 (UTC)

You guys are ridiculous,i just read that Kelmendi's tribe gots Serbian origin,well thats FUNNY! And not logic! We see here clearly that wikipedia is full of lies,and full of serbian propaganda. So is Barack Obama serbian too ? Is Italy serbian too ? Cali for you is criminal and traitor of albanians,Kelmendi tribe is serbian well, i dont have what to say anymore its really ridiculous! AlbertBikaj (talk) 13:06, 19 February 2014 (UTC)

Here you got the proof for Communist propaganda,and airbrushing Cali from History of Albania during Communist rule proof AlbertBikaj (talk) 15:40, 19 February 2014 (UTC)

Memorial of Prek Cali AlbertBikaj (talk) 20:36, 2 March 2014 (UTC)

This needs to be rewritten from scratch

I'm probably going to stub this whole article down to a two- or three-sentence stub very soon, and invite people to rewrite it. This needs to be re-done from scratch, and by people who (a) know some English, (b) know how to evaluate sources properly, and (c) don't have an ideological–national bee in their bonnet over whatever this person's historical role may have been. Note that neither of the two major contributors who have written this article so far qualify. To both of you: if you don't know English, you ought not to be writing here. Fut.Perf. ☼ 23:41, 23 February 2014 (UTC)

Agreed, Fut.Perf.. I'd already tag-bombed it soon after it was created, but reverted my requests for translation, and was fairly much anticipating the furore which broke out as being inevitable. I was actually about to submit this to the WP:DR/N in order to establish what the neutral POV truly is. AlbertBikaj contacted me on my talk page as he is aware of the fact that I've been following it. While both of the primary contributors are frustrating to work with, AlbertBikaj has provided a couple of secondary English sources (at least one of which appears to be by a scholar with reasonable credentials; the other is probably POV as it is a monk's memoirs rather as opposed to scholarly research).

Ultimately, unless you are particularly keen to work on it, I find myself wondering whether there is enough of a knowledge base to justify the existence of this article. I don't know any Albanian and - as I spend a lot of time cite checking sources in Russian, Ukrainian, Belarus and Polish which are pure shoehorning and simply leave a trail of messy, incomprehensible information behind after citekill - I wonder whether a stub is warranted when there are contributors standing by waiting to leap on it for POV push purposes. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 00:23, 24 February 2014 (UTC)

Communist propaganda (reference)

Im writting reference about "chapter" Communist propaganda. Cali and other Northern Albanian tribes refused to join communists,they attacked them. After struggle against communism,Cali and Ndre Zadeja,with other catholic priests were killed and announced as "traitors". Albanian communists banned Gjergj Fishta's books,and other catholic Albanians priests books,and announced them as "traitors", Albanian communist propaganda was supported by Yugoslavian communists against Cali,because Cali become their ennemy,during protection of Albanian border (1913-1921),Knjaz Nikola wanted to corrupt him,but Prek refused. The "corporation with chetniks" was part of his biography only during communism. After fall of communism,there are founded a lot of facts that show the propaganda of communists. This article was written according to communist period books,which claims that Cali was traitor. Modern Albanian scholars like Isa Blumi,Pjeter Pepa,Uran Butka,or foreign scholars like D. R. Oakley-Hill, Bejtullah Destani, David Smiley:

Here you got something about Prek Cali,Live to tell : True Story - At Zef Pllumi this book is written by Albanian priest Zef Pllumi.

Here is another strong proof, the book of Uran Butka,albanian scholar,historian and ocular witness, in his book "Ringjallje"(En: Reborn) in page 120 here you got the conversation of Prenk (Preng) Cali with Mehmet Shehu Albanian partisan (communist) (ALB: " Kur na çuen ke shtabi i batalionit, në Rrapsh të Hotit, Mehmet Shehu, u ndodh ballë për ballë me Prek Calin: - E, Prekë Cali, - i tha Mehmeti, - të pat ardhur dita ta mbyllesh historinë tënde me shkronja ari, po të bëheshe me ne! Pse bëre kështu? - Zotni, - iu përgjigj Prekë Cali, - faji bie mbi ju, se ju u batë aleat me anmikun shekullor tonin, me Serbin.”) (EN: When they took us to the battalion headquarters in Rapsha of Hoti, Mehmet Shehu saw Prek Cali andsaid to him  :"Your history would be written in gold,if you were in our side. Why did you do this ? ", Prek Cali replied : "The blame falls on you because you choose to ally with our sworn enemy,Serbia"

An Englishman in Albania: memoirs of a British officer 1929-1955 Here is another proof about Communist propaganda(Communist said that Cali is traitor) in book of Stan Sherer, Marjorie Senechal "Long life to your children!: a portrait of High Albania" ,or in another book,written by Albanian scholar Elmas Leci ,"Kush i Vrau? Perse i denuan" (EN "Who killed them? Why they were punished?") ,or Isa Blumi book,Isa Blumi,page 16 or the book of Pejtër Pepa "The Criminal file of Albania's communist dictator" etc. Im going to do another research if its needed. But please change as fast you can the article. Because the books in serbian are based on communist books like this one "Heronjt e Heshtun" (Silent heros) written by Communist Albanian state which claims that Cali and other Albanian hero's were traitors... I think here you got a lot of strong proofs.

A new proof about Prek Cali's biography, the book is written by Albanian scholar Gjekë Gjonaj Prekë Cali, "Piramidë e kufijve të Shqipërisë" (En: "Prek Cali,The pyramid of Albanian border"),this book is reviewed by famous Albanian Historian, Prof.Romeo Gurakuqi he is professor in "European University of Tirana". The corporation with communism theory's are based in Albanian communist Authors! This book denies communist theory about corporation with chetniks,and also dont forget he is officially known as Albanian Hero,and Pride of Albania. The biography which is written is not neutral at all,90% of literature which is used is by Serbian Communist authors! Also dont forget the Isa Blumi reference! — Preceding unsigned comment added by AlbertBikaj (talk • contribs) 10:00, 6 April 2014 (UTC)

References

• Comment: Do you have any reliable sources explicitly claiming Yugoslav/Serbian sources mentioning Cali as "propaganda"? Please present them correctly, with pages and citations. Zef Pllumi p. 12 says nothing about what you claim. Uran Butka was born in 1938, and is thus obviously not a witness, also his account does not refute that Cali cooperated with the Chetniks. Senechal only has "The so-called traitors were people like Preng Cali.." about this. Blumi p. 16 says nothing about what you claim. I cannot view Pepa. Could you please back up your claim that the Serbian works are based on Albanian Communist works? Please look up WP:PROVEIT. Who is Luigj Martini?--Zoupan 20:10, 19 October 2015 (UTC)

Dear Zoupan Zoupan, Luigj Martini is an historian,he does not believe or does not claim,he wrote the first authentic biography of Prek Cali after fall of communism based on reliable sources and occular witness. I see that my previous comments were misunderstood and you misinterpret the facts (I believe without purpose). In this article most of books are from communist era,which normal will claim that Cali corporated with Chetniks or Fascists. You got here book of prominent academic and historian, Isa Blumi. This article is unreliable and not neutral at all. If you continue to use Yugoslavian or Albanian communist literature almost every anti-communist will be fascist including Albanian priests like Anton Harapi,Gjergj Fishta etc. I'm not blaming you for interpreting communis literature,but you shouldn't have deleted other modern literature which prove that it was communist propaganda. I remember that I had cited Prek Cali's interview after he got released from prison in which he personally denied that he cooperated with fascists or chetnicks. I never intended to vandalize or use fake or propagandistic sources,but Cali was a dissident,anti-communist and officially hero of Albania. I know that It may seem confusing,but anyway this is the truth. Enver Hoxha and communist wanted to abolish Cali from history,accusing him (same as Dom Ndre Zadeja and other priests) as an fascist and traitor (Stan Sherer,University of Massachusetts). Anyway,his real biography is restored after fall of communism and he got the honor he deserves. I re-edited my comment because I've problems with my English, Thank you! 213.133.24.74 (talk) 12:54, 10 April 2016 (UTC)

P.S: As well you can check out the official site of Museum of Memoires (founded by Albanian government), "id=8tijBQAAQBAJ&pg=PT22&dq=preng+cali&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwibsoeg_IPMAhWqKJoKHXVtDTIQ6AEIMTAE#v=onepage&q=preng%20cali&f=false The Bomb and the Soviet Embassy in Tirana,by Uran Butka" , "The criminal file of Albania's communist dictator,by Pjeter Pepa" etc. 213.133.24.74 (talk) 11:46, 10 April 2016 (UTC)

Issues with sources

I have repeatedly asked the User:Zoupan to correct the text he brought to his article, and bring neutral sources, in English. The text he wrote, is based entirely on sources only in Serbian, sources which are biased, cannot be verified, and their neutrality is doubtful. (Edvin (talk) 20:53, 22 September 2017 (UTC))

Correct, how? By removing it? You did say: POW, sources are all in Serbian, not sure about what is written there. No references in Albanian, although Prek Cali was Albanian. Now present your case. It is on you to refute Partisan and Chetnik sources, Montenegrin and Serbian historians. You need to do more than just call them biased, unverifiable and unneutral, just because you think so. The references indeed include quotes.--Zoupan 23:27, 22 September 2017 (UTC)

@Edvini: I have removed your 'POV section' tag. Please read this template's usage notes carefully. WP:JUSTDONTLIKEIT doesn't cut the mustard, and sources do not have to be in English so long as they are reliable. Given that the subject of the article is not covered in English language sources, languages other than English are going to be the default where notable subjects are dealt with. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 20:50, 23 September 2017 (UTC)

We are not sure what the sources are saying and that they are reliable. We need a neutral source to that section. Until then, the NPOV cannot be verified. (Edvin (talk) 17:58, 26 September 2017 (UTC))

Zoupan, bringin here sources of historians who wrote with directives from Yugoslav Communist Party, is not really something you can base your idea on what happened. You have been repeatedly accused here on Wikipedia for distorting facts and bringing very old, non-reliable source, and for pushing the Greater Serbia agenda on articles related to Albania and Croatia. What would happen if I bring references about Serbia, from Albanian historians who wrote only in Albanian, and during the communist dictatorship? Or how would a Pole feel if I bring citations from German historians who wrote books during the Nazi dictatorship?(Edvin (talk) 18:19, 26 September 2017 (UTC))

Fine, then bring reliable sources contradicting the current sources and we can work mainstream source contradictions into the content. What neutral sources do you have on the subject? --Iryna Harpy (talk) 22:36, 27 September 2017 (UTC)